I personally dont see how people can take men in tights with friggin huge, unrealistic ball shoulders and characters like mr fantastic the elastic man (reed richards or whatever the hell his name is) seriously. I mean they're the height of childish. Of course theres other marvel series that can be taken more seriously like X-Men and Batman (before batty boy Robin and all the queer supervillains, when he fought CRIME), but most of it is very puerile. Like how the hero ALWAYS wins. Thats such bull. To me a lot of marvel has laughable physiology, while the animes that aren't about a cast of 14 year old jailbait girls, have excellent physiology. Then theres the style. Power armours, hardcore guns, really functional looking tech, while every fucking marvel cartoon has cops toting laser guns that if they hit you, they do no damage, pointless. The robots are usually laughable attempts at mecha, that look as if they had been conceptionalised from a model made out of a toilet duck bottle and some bogrolls. Front missions mecha, Bubblegums armours and boomers, even shitty Gundam Wing has some fantastic mecha. Hell, even Disney can manage some good robots now n then but I dont remember the last time I was reading a Marvel comic and went yeah!, that mech/gun is so cool.

Marvel has been around for a long time and most people grow up with it and are used to. Throw in Anime/Manga and its like replacing a human heart with a cow, it gets rejected.

But then again most of the stuff from Japan that made a huge impact on the west is things like Pokemon, Digimon etc and probably why people relate manga/anime as kiddie style. There are realistic Anime about e.g GITS (Ghost in the Shell movie) Patlabor etc just some people turn a blind eye and refuse to look.

Perhaps its the sudden burst of fresh newborn artists that get hooked into Manga that flood the forums, which is probably why it is frown upon.

Don't let it bother you, each side has its own views of the opposition and neither side can win.

Gimme a time machine. I want some classic Dredd. Theres even one where he pushes a super hacker guy in a wheelchair off a bridge into oncoming traffic. SPLAT !!!. I am soooo evil .

FRESH MOAN FROM NEO....
Then theres the Wild Thornberrys. Talk to Ginger and all those AWFUL cartoons drawn by someone who cannot DRAW AT ALL. Theyre all drawn by the same guy, and he has about three or four series running right now on British tv. HE CANT FUCKING DRAW. His characters disgust me, theyre so UGLY. This guy makes more money than people like Chalosan, and Runee. Artists on Deviant I respect, with his wank form of art. THERES NO JUSTICE. The art is so disgusting to me.

Neo don't be silly and think for a second, you arent a kid so bitching about Superman and kiddie cartoons isnt going to get you anywhere. Unless you are under 15 years of age these cartoons arent for you mate.

You can't dictate what kids should watch, if they get queer happy cartoons then so be it, it all comes down to the audience and such toons like Wild Thornberry's have become popular to hit the cinema, they're ugly you're right its your opinion but kids much younger than you like it.

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Gimme a time machine. I want some classic Dredd. Theres even one where he pushes a super hacker guy in a wheelchair off a bridge into oncoming traffic. SPLAT !!!. I am soooo evil

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Thats the type of things you like. It doesnt concern the rest of the children on British soil that likes Superman, Spidy cutesy stuff etc.

As for the artist behind that crap, I will defend him. Whoever he is, has made it to the top drawing characters for a hit animation shown on children tv. It became so popular that his creaton got to the movies. The money is rolling into his pockets, he can probably draw better in his spare time then draw something you refer to as Disgusting for the kids. I can draw better than him but somehow I'm at home sitting here behind a monitor wasting my life away.

And Neo to be very honest, I'm not too keen on furry animal human whatever its called that you draw espically when its hentai.

1. Highlights and lowlights. It's true. While in an actual animation rather than a still frame official art, i have found that numerous highlights give the figure the elements it needs to look more 3d.

2. Forshortening and dynamics. I need the most help here. I'm working on it though.

3. Knowing what to draw. I always forget that it doesn't have to be a full body standing position to look cool.

4. Eyes. Almost got this one right.

Manga excels in one thing over Marvel-esque comics IMO - the emotional range used. While marvel excels in violence and upholding the good old American Way of Life(tm), manga goes a little deeper than that. Sure, Evangelion includes violence and giant robots, but it also includes themes of sexuality, deeper psychological relations between characters and existentialism (see End Of Evangelion for more evidence).

Manga covers areas that I havn't heard if before, drawing on ideas in science and physics in order to make a more believable story - I cite a recent chapter of Oh my goddess / Ah! Megisama that includes the theory of Schroedinger's Cat and duality of self.

And just to send my head round the blender again, try Ghost in the shell 2 (if you don't have copies of this, get it now ). Gene therapy, cyber culture, cyborgs (and again existentialism), all covered in a much more beautiful and involving style than most traditional Western comics that I have seen.

Of course, Judge Dredd IS a bloody good read (well, read, i mean look at...these are cartoons after all) - blood and gore and facist policemen. Hehehe....the testosterone flows like the blood!

Personally I don't care what people think of anime; there's good stuff and there's bad stuff. Grown-up stuff and kiddie stuff. Same goes for comics. I watch what I like to watch, I'll read what I want to read, and I'll draw what I want to draw.
Claiming the "anime style" is not proper art is rediculous tho, especially since the word "anime" as japanese cartoons is a western phenomenon. In Japan anime is just animation, no matter what style. As such there are very well drawn anime and manga (ever read Vagabond, or Blade of the Immortal? You'll know what I'm talking about). Same goes for comics *shrugs* in the end I really don't care as long as I like it

As for Shinrai's comment that I'm too old to watch cartoons !!!. I'll watch what the hell I like. You're too old to be in nappies but I bet youre wearing one Slappy.

I apologise to everyone else for that previous comment, but I WONT BE TALKED DOWN TO for liking cartoons. I'd rather watch a cartoon than a film to be honest.

As for what British children like. I think you'll find they enjoy violence too, it's called 'bloodlust' and it's human nature. Like sex and greed. All these things make up your psychology and to deny one is stupid. It only leads to repressed angst or the occasional bout of random violence. Children 8+ are cruelty personified and operate from an entirely selfish point of view. They enjoy violence, I'd bet money on it.

[ 06-05-2003: Message edited by: neo ]

Then theres the old Transformers and the new ones, Armada and that other one. What a joke they are compared to the old ones. Remember when Hotrod gave Prime his heart after betraying him and almost selling him out/killing him, he was giving up his life to Prime. If thats not adult I dont know what is, the ultimate sacrifice. These new ones not only have a cast of about 10 bots tops, but its kiddified with no character development or emotion. Transformers was hardly a literary masterpiece but it illustrates serious emotional development and the lack of it in modern cartoons. I think the nearest we get to character development nowadays is those highschool things and the relationships between the circle of friends who are always at the centre of those things. You dont see them dealing with vengeance or hate, real conflict though. It's just some selfish high schooler who thinks the world should revolve around them, thats as complicated as things get. Ive gotta get Joey to invite me to the dance, I HAVE A SPOT, I have nothing to wear, storylines rule these things, and thats not serious drama to me.

I apologise to everybody for the last two posts. I tend to show my ignorance when Im tired, and I'm tired right now (was up before 5.00am). Bear that in mind before you flame me. I also apologise to Shinrai for the nappy comment too.

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You're too old to be in nappies but I bet youre wearing one Slappy

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I don't quite know who this is directed to and I hope you arent throwing insults at me. Also I wasn't talking down on you for watching cartoons, read my post and tell me where i talked down on you.

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As for what British children like. I think you'll find they enjoy violence too

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Again what are you trying to say? that you speak for all the children in Britan? not every kid girl or boy is like you Neo. Bloodlust? I used to have this urge to go out and kill or maim someone, I needed to hurt myself to snap out of it and children shouldn't be going through this.

Old days are gone and its the younger generation responsibility to recreate if they wish.

Comics, on the other hand, I'd consider an art form. A new one, perhaps, which is why they are not highly regarded by art schools or old-school art critics. The combination of text and image is an interesting idea - considering that originally letters (and words) looked like what they represented. Images and text were originally the same thing. Then this drifted apart - paintings getting more and more photo-realistic and text becoming less and less representational and more iconographic. Comics attempts to reunite these too now very distant forms. Which is what makes it interesting.

Anime and Marvel-type art have a lot in common, if you believe in the above theory - they are just different developments of the same idea by different cultures. I don't consider most mainstream comics very good, however - and I'd lump together everything from Batman and the X-Men to Dragonball Z and Love Hina in this "not very good" category.

Anyway, "anime" is a generic term which I believe you're not using correctly (although I obviously know what you mean by your usage). The above criticism (of mine) relates to the two different styles of drawing to which I believe you refer - eastern and western style. On their own, they are relatively unimportant and frankly, not art. As comics, they become something other. And the distinction between the two is rather unimportant. A matter of taste, no more.

the ineffable,

Pixie

Firstly, a word about comics. I agree largely with my mate pixie on this, except for a few points. Firstly, comics aren’t a 'new' art form, in fact they are one of the oldest. The combination of images and words (which at the time were almost indistinguishable) to form a narrative was first explored in cave paintings!!
Add to this the fact that images and words are the two most important building blocks of the majority of art, and you have yourself the most versatile art-form ever created!!... so comics aren’t a genre, as is so often thought: Altho typified by 'comic-books', printed in magazines and graphic novels, they can use any media you wanna get your hands on!

Secondly, Manga (we are talking here about Japanese comics, since anime refers to Japanese animation). Just as comics are not a 'genre', neither is manga. People tend to lump manga into one style or ideal, and that just isn’t right!
Manga simply refers to any comics produced in Japan, and as such, is just as diverse as my description of comics above. The only difference here, is that it has been developed in relative isolation, and therefore is typified by a different style, and uses different visual cues and methods of expressionism:

Obviously to say that these are more, or less effective than western visual styles is being close-minded...
Altho, saying this, everyone has their own preferences, and I prefer the story-telling methods and visual style of manga comics over western ones.

Heh, sorry about this mini-essay, but I've done a lot of research into these areas ^^;;;; I hope you can see that if you get rid of all the common pre-conceptions about comics/mangas, the quality of the individual piece is simply down to the artist!! I've read some brilliant western comics, and some terrible ones!! Conversely, I've read some terrible mangas too! ^_^
You've just got to try and find what makes you tick!

[ 07-05-2003: Message edited by: spoonbard ]

'Understanding Comics: The invisble art.'
by Scott McCloud.

It does a lot to dispel the pre-conceptions about comics, and shows how incredible they have the potential to be!

You say I was speaking for all the kids in the UK, so were you so dont get on your high horse judging me for my observation when you did the very same thing. You think kids are all fluffy and sweet, they are untill youre not watching. Then around strangers they become something else just like grown adults. One face for themselves in private, one face for the world used to fit in.

The way you wrote both posts was like a sermon. Everything you said and the way you said it patronised me. You attacked my art style (anthros) and the way I like to draw. You generalised that Im some nut whos happy to maim or torture others like some sick puppy. Your wording was pretencious, arrogant and it all sounded like I was being talked down to. The nappy comment was aimed at you, and I no longer apologise for it. Youre officially the first person on OM I dont like.

Now I'm pissed off. I never wanted to get into any nasty arguments. I dont dislike you Shinrai but I cant apologise for my attitude. Ive been talked down to most of my life and it tends to make me less than nice. Im angry but Ill apologise anyway because it wasnt fair to attack you for speaking your mind openly just as I was. Lets just say we have differing opinions and leave it at that.

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not every kid girl or boy is like you Neo

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Now let me attempt to clear a few things up, when I said I wasnt too keen on the "anthros" I ment the style of animal/human in a sexual pose its not something I've seen often or used to. But that was in response to the way you directed an attack on another particluar artist which wasn't very nice, just made me think what you would say to my art if I was in his position. So you see I wasnt attacking you or your art style, I did not say I hated or disliked.

You also mentioned "Theres no Justice, the art is so digusting to me" near the top. have you ever taken a look at the stuff in the Tate Gallery? A Pile of cow pat was on display once along with a dirty stained bed but people still call it art. Just making a point that there are other stuff you should vent your digust on rather than a kids cartoon.

To hurt or Maim, if you read I said that was the time when I had bloodlust not you, I was always looking for trouble back in my old school days always getting hurt and it became addictive, like a drug that adrenalin rush was so awsome during a fight. Pure pleasure kicking someone in the face and getting hit back untill one day I thought to myself wtf am I doing?

I stopped alltogeather, it was still hard when I got a urge, my arms would start shivering. Body building sorted that out 1 arm pressups and the like. Now after much consumption of KFC and Pepsi I have a tubby and wouldn't hurt a spider. Violent start eh? I used to be a good lad back in Malay till I came to the UK and ended up in a class full of trouble makers, now I'm a good again!

All in all I'm not bothered anymore, if I can't explain something to you I won't. To be very honest here I like you Neo but I do disagree with some of the stuff you say and find it very difficult to get around. So if you felt talked down to I apologize.

I'm not going to let this thread get to me or effect what I say elsewhere in this Forum.

Did they really display THAT cow pat thing at the Tate gallery ??. If thats considered art then what the hell IS art really ??.

My definition of art is very simple - art is way of expressing ideas and exploring the world around you, and attempting to change the way you and other people look at things. Good art has good reasoning behind it.

Nothing pisses me off more than people in art galleries going "That's not art! My 3 year old daughter could have painted that!" and other similar comments. If you've ever studied art beyond GCSE you'd know to look a little deeper than the surface, perhaps to what the artist is trying to express. Don't be so fucking biased, shooting your mouth off before you've even thought it through.

I guess what I was trying to get at was that those people might not have tried very hard to put some thought behind the art they created - it may be just me, but I guess art means something if you've struggled to create it in some way (and I'm probably WAY wrong at this point, so do not hesitate to correct me). To me, I just feel that winning a prize for something you didn't even try hard for (I refer to the room with lights going on and off) feels like you've 'cheated' to get it. But that's just my opinion, and I realise (on hindsight, whatever good that does) that I didn't phrase it as carefully as I should have, not actually thinking about the issue at hand. We live and learn.