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Author Topic: Cels
Saber
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Member # 234

posted 02-08-2004 05:54 AM     Profile for Saber   Author's Homepage   Email Saber     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Are most animes made on computers, or with cels?

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Saber, meeting all your Manga needs.

Posts: 27 | From: North America | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bugsy
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posted 02-08-2004 08:21 PM     Profile for Bugsy   Author's Homepage   Email Bugsy     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'm not sure, but I think both. I believe nowadays they use computers more and more, but still use cels. They scan the cels to the comp and compose everything digitally.

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Desert Rain

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Bomu
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posted 04-08-2004 12:39 AM     Profile for Bomu   Author's Homepage   Email Bomu     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
What Bugsy said! Yeah, Cels are still used for most anime. Sometimes the dougas (line art) will be scanned in and coloured digitally, but acylic on celuliod is most common.

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Organic Metal

Posts: 1622 | From: Kent, England | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Yuki H.
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posted 04-08-2004 01:42 AM     Profile for Yuki H.   Author's Homepage   Email Yuki H.     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Yeah sometimes they use Acetate and sometimes they do it digitally. ^ _ ^

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Posts: 198 | From: Hell... At least, I think. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Zankouken
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posted 06-08-2004 09:55 AM     Profile for Zankouken   Author's Homepage   Email Zankouken     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
What are cels exactly?

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Bad guy: "Now I by my possess the joy of murder"
Drebin: "The joy is mine everything"

Posts: 256 | From: Birmingham, England | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bomu
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Member # 1

posted 06-08-2004 10:29 AM     Profile for Bomu   Author's Homepage   Email Bomu     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Definitions of cel on the Web:

A single image in an animation sequence www.jegsworks.com/Lessons/reference/glossary-noframes.htm


A clear plastic sheet on which an image has been inked or copied and then painted. Finished cels are placed over a background and photographed in sequence to create the illusion of motion. www.srlabs.com/llgls.html


A transparent sheet of cellulose acetate or similar plastic serving as a support or overlay for drawings, lettering,etc., in animation & title work
aniland.cyper.co.kr/Terminology.htm

This link is also very useful to clue you up on Cels:
http://www.animanga.com/cels/info/cels.html

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Organic Metal


Posts: 1622 | From: Kent, England | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zankouken
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Member # 203

posted 06-08-2004 11:00 AM     Profile for Zankouken   Author's Homepage   Email Zankouken     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Ah I get it, similar to the "layers" you use in programs like Paint Shop Pro.
I already had a basic understanding of how they work but never knew they were called cels.
Here's me thinking you guys were on about... infact I didn't have a clue them being called cels realy threw me .
Well that and fancy words like acetate

edit: I guess saying thanks for the info would be nice

[ 06-08-2004: Message edited by: Zankouken ]

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Bad guy: "Now I by my possess the joy of murder"
Drebin: "The joy is mine everything"


Posts: 256 | From: Birmingham, England | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
anime55ruler
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posted 11-11-2004 03:37 PM     Profile for anime55ruler   Author's Homepage   Email anime55ruler     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
NO, actually, if your wondering if cels are done on computer, there not. the way they get that coloring like that is all thanks to these special paints called "animation colors" . first they draw the image on animation paper, and then it's transfered on to a cel, colord then photographed. seems like a lot of work, huh> well, it's not. thanks to the hundreds of people involved in the process. but more on that later.
Posts: 8 | From: I'm not telling | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Zephos
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Member # 206

posted 16-11-2004 06:14 PM     Profile for Zephos   Author's Homepage   Email Zephos     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hhaha, reminds me of Disney's old famous Multiplane camera, aka, the "Glass Guillotine", as it was somewhat affectionately called back then because of the massive weight of the glass sliders that could kill a man under them should they collapse under the weight of the rest of the machine... but ah... that's why modern technology is so wonderful

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www.xynthica.com

Zephos's ice creamy anime and manga art, featuring Xynthica, a fluffy little female biped who works as a summoned monster for endorsing products -- instead of killing things! Contains cute colorful cartoons and caustic cultural commentary!


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Cloud
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Banned as of 11/11/05

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posted 15-12-2004 06:56 PM     Profile for Cloud   Author's Homepage   Email Cloud     Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
know what? I used to be anime55ruler. but I thought that was a stupid name so I changed it. (actually made a whole new user account).

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I hope you get ran over by a big ice cream truck full of AIDS

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Dan York
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posted 16-12-2004 12:11 AM     Profile for Dan York   Author's Homepage   Email Dan York     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
As a resident animator, I feel I should involve myself in some way, seeing as this is a thread discussing animation somewhat... *clears throat*

You're absolutely right about cels - it is a transparent acetate sheet, and has been in use since the very early days of animation. Of course, not since the very earliest days of animation (Gertie the Dinosaur et al), as that was done on paper, but it sucked having to draw out the same background 24 frames a second, or shining a light through your animation to see some faint crap background behind it.

So, eventually, cels were introduced as a means of having a moving character but not having to redo the same background for each frame and retaining a wonderful clarity of image. However, acetate was and still isn't particularly cheap. And of course, it took valuble time to produce the animation, then trace, ink and paint the cels. Hence why most cartoons pre-1950 were shorts. I remember a wonderful tale of Warner Brothers early animations being done on the same eight cels, because they couldn't afford any more. They'd literally produce the cel, snap it and then wash it and reuse it. Quality stuff!

Then came Xeroxing straight to acetate. Instead of having to ink each cel by hand, you could photocopy your pencil image straight onto acetate! Hurrah. Hannah-Barbera used the time-effective Xeroxing method to the death with their huge slew of cheap, easy to make, clone series of the 60's. Unfortunately, the line you get from Xeroxing is grainy and pale at best; inking while more time-consuming yielded much better results.

Cut to the early 90's. Disney decide to ditch cels in favour of totally computer inked and coloured animation. The marked clarity, creative control, time and money saving results from using CAPS, Disney's proprietary animation software, were phenomenal. The Little Mermaid was the last totally cel animated feature Disney produce, The Rescuers Down Under was the first to exclusively use CAPS. And they've used it ever since.

Eventually, the time and money saved by using computers in hand drawn animation made it pretty standard across the board. In fact, I can't think of any animation created recently that hasn't been created using systems like CAPS, ANIMO, et al, over here, in the States or even in Japan who were very quick to adopt it after Disney went CAPS only.

*breathes* Of course, the really sad thing is that Disney are cutting their 'traditional' animated feature wing off completely after Home on the Range was finished. They are integrating Pixar into the main body of the corporation following the enormous successes Pixar have had, making it CG animation all the way. While I really enjoyed The Incredibles recently, and hope to make a living out of CG animation myself some day soon, I think traditional animation still has its place. For Disney to ditch it like that did upset me quite a bit. Oh well.

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Posts: 73 | From: Eastleigh | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Zephos
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posted 16-12-2004 01:25 AM     Profile for Zephos   Author's Homepage   Email Zephos     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
You sure know your stuff! Did you go to an animation/film school or did you learn all this through independant study? You definitely have a solid knowledge of this, even for a practical animator.

Another interesting note about the paints they used on the cels is that they were very heat sensitive. If the weather was too warm, animators would sometimes arrive at the studio to find the sheets stuck together with melted paint, and if it was too cold, the paint would crack and they'd have to do the whole dang thing over again, hahhaha... also, although the paint looked pretty clean on the front side of the cel, the back looked like a bloody smear, just the way it was with the paints, hahaha. I think they also had a problem with the ants eating the paint back them because of the sugar content in them or something between the lines... yup, those were the days when everything could go wrong

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www.xynthica.com

Zephos's ice creamy anime and manga art, featuring Xynthica, a fluffy little female biped who works as a summoned monster for endorsing products -- instead of killing things! Contains cute colorful cartoons and caustic cultural commentary!


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Bomu
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Member # 1

posted 16-12-2004 01:44 AM     Profile for Bomu   Author's Homepage   Email Bomu     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Interesting history there Dan. You obviously took something in at those uni lectures!

Anyho, I wish to correct my earlier comment about acrylic paints being used. I was told otherwise recently by a huge japanamation cel collector aka my brother. I think he said it was vinyl paints used instead as far as anime goes...

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Organic Metal


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Tri_kento
Super Member

Member # 194

posted 16-12-2004 03:07 AM     Profile for Tri_kento   Author's Homepage   Email Tri_kento     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
bla to much text !!!

hehe

the only real history of cels i got is from the one episode of the simpsons were bart buys a cel frame from the itchy and scratchy show and he gets a arm of scratchy.(a funny episode to say the least) and that's about all i know about cels and junk.

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~Save points are for quiters~


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Dan York
Member

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posted 16-12-2004 11:36 AM     Profile for Dan York   Author's Homepage   Email Dan York     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well, you don't do a four year animation course and learn nowt! Even I shocked myself with how much I knew... yikes!

quote:
Originally posted by Tri_kento:
the only real history of cels i got is from the one episode of the simpsons were bart buys a cel frame from the itchy and scratchy show and he gets a arm of scratchy.(a funny episode to say the least) and that's about all i know about cels and junk.

As I eventually found out, animation is about cutting as many corners as possible. In other words, being as lazy as possible to achieve an effect that looks seamless and required more work than it actually did!

The arm cel from the Simpsons is a classic example of a technique exploited to death, especially in anime. Instead of drawing the whole figure moving in a sequence where not much else moves, the animators would just animate the stuff that did move, and have another cel for the stuff that didn't behind it. Anime characters are notorious for having a static head and flapping mouths; the flapping mouths themselves are only usually two or three cels worth of mouth shapes! That way, your workload was again reduced signifcantly, but no-one hardly noticed

Of course, some bright spark also spotted that 24 frames a second wasn't necessary to achieve the illusion of movement. The human brain could perceive movement at a mere 12 frames a second. So that was the workload halved again!

Yes, we animators are pretty lazy bastards...

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