Folowing a relgion isnt the requirment, its having accepted Jesus as your savior. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but no you cant get into heaven without Jesus, unless you are PERFECT.

Which brings me to your other question. Yes, people who dont belive in Jesus can be good people. I know alot of good people that dont belive in him. But are they perfect? No. We all sin, and so steps in Jesus.

Once again, im not an expert, but this is what ive learned from studying the Bible.

Such things are outdated and archaic ways of explaing things we once didn't understand. Like death. and stars. and gravity. and evolution.

well, hell. We've figured a lot of these things out now. And big surprise, an eclipse isn't a bad omen, swarms of locusts occur naturally, and drought doesn't mean god's really pissed off with you and wants multiple bloody sacrifices in his name. These things are explainable.

Yeah, so. it being in human nature to want SOME sort of explaination for these things (we are an enquiring sort), we invented a god. or many gods, depending on your religion. and thus we could sleep easily, knowing there was a higher reason and we weren't just going mad.

Frankly, I've got nothing against god or religion. If you live your life according to any of the major religions (yes, including Christianity) you will no doubt be a good and respectable citizen your entire life. I like religious people, providing they don't use their religion as an excuse to go around killing other people, or try to foist their religion in the faces of people who don't want it. I'm not claiming for a second that that's what you're doing here, PS - the foisting of religion. I'm talking about those people who preach at you and how you live your life wrong and how jesus will save you EVERY FUCKIN' MINUTE. Yes, you've met them. If you haven't, count yourselves very lucky.
I guess I just really don't like being preached at. I need a good sound argument from an intelligent and persuasive person before I'll even listen and count it as viable. I'm sorry, but "you just gotta BELIEVE!!" just don't cut it for me.

And those of you who are whinging that you won't get into heaven because you don't believe in Jesus, for crying out loud, GROW UP! If you believe in heaven, then bite the bullet and believe in jesus too, go join the church and sing about god and be happy that you'll be going up their with the angels some day!

And if you don't, stop moaning. You can't possibly believe in heaven but not in jesus. That's ridiculous.

When you die, you die. and then you're dead. It's a lot like being asleep, but permenant, and without the dreaming. You just stop being. If that's too scary for you, believe in heaven, by all means. But you can't have your cake and eat it on this subject. Either believe in it all or have the balls to reject it all. And stop bloody moaning, it's not going to change the fact that one day you'll die.

quote:

---

And those of you who are whinging that you won't get into heaven because you don't believe in Jesus, for crying out loud, GROW UP! If you believe in heaven, then bite the bullet and believe in jesus too, go join the church and sing about god and be happy that you'll be going up their with the angels some day!

---

Interesting interpretation of what I've said (if that was meant to be related to the posts I put up). I was merely confused about certain things, and wanted a few answers. If it sounded like I was worried about not getting into heaven, I wouldn't take it as such...

quote:

---

I'm talking about those people who preach at you and how you live your life wrong and how jesus will save you EVERY FUCKIN' MINUTE. Yes, you've met them. If you haven't, count yourselves very lucky.

---

quote:

---

I think your generlizing a bit. Christians arent superstisous(at least not any i know of). There are obviously systems God has set up.

---

of course I was generalizing, for the sake of argument. And I don't believe the generalization makes my argument any less valid. God was originally invented by people who wanted explanations for things. The human race has only learnt and thrived through it's learning by questioning, and all the greatest thinkers of our race have questioned what they're told. God seems a good explanation for that which you don't understand, but I still hold to my opinion that in this day and age such an explanation is unnecessary - it is archaic, outdated, and often causes problems (in the cases where people fight because of religion, or kill even).

quote:

---

But if you look into the scientific explanations of how life came to be they are so improbably it takes more faith to belive in THEM than God.

---

umm. Somehow, I disagree. I think it's easier to believe in scientifically provable evolution than it is to believe in a God who is so patently a human invention, who supposedly made the whole world in seven days for us humans to live on. -_- If that's true, what about the rest of the universe, or the dinosaurs that existed millions of years before us, or the fact that God seems a little lax with the miracles in this day and age (when we can explain the once unexplainable - such as eclipses, stars, lightning).
I was raised a Christian, but I see it as my duty as a thinking person to question these things. Blinkered idiots who go through their lives accepting and never testing what they believe with reasoned argument will never learn anything. I chose not to believe in God because I find the whole notion absurd - and comparing facts and arguments for both cases I chose science, which is emminently provable and has far less agenda.

quote:

---

Thanks for the comment though. Its nice to see an atheist who isnt an uneducated idiot.

---

no offense, but I find it the other way round. In my view, it tends to be the religious types who fail to question and frankly, I see the inability to question what you're told as ineducation. Blindly believing is foolish and the majority of religious types I've met (particularly the fanatical ones) tend to be.... let's say less intelligent. Perhaps it's easier for such people to deceive themselves and simply "have faith" than it is to admit that you were wrong and step into a far scarier world of uncertainty. And learn, as a result. Become a wiser person.

Nice one Liz. You really should try writing again. It'd be a great book. I'd read it anyway. Not a lovestruck puppy comment, you really have a great writing style.

Also, we never did see your exibition pieces.

Yeah, and I'm also moving to Bournemouth next monday, so there's all the hassle of that.

quote:

---

think it's easier to believe in scientifically provable evolution

---

That would make sense...if Evolution was provable.The truth is, it isnt. I can go into a lot of Scientific reasons why.

And i most certainly have questioned my belifs. I used to have alot issues with God and faith...and ive reasearched it. There are thousands of prophecies in the Old Testament that have been fullfilled...one of my favorites involves an old city named Tyre. I could go look up the verse if want, but basicly it says the people will be slaughtered and all of its buildings pushed into the sea. Now, a couple hundred years later, Alexander the Great is rampaging around. The city of Tyre gets advance warning, and flees to an Island. Alexander is so mad he orders EVERY SINGLE BUILDING to be pushed INTO THE SEA to make a bridge to reach the Island. He does, and slaughters the citizens. There are many more like that as well.

Ive also studied up on Evolution. And Sciences explanations for Creation are Illogical as well.

In fact, as artists I'd say that's our goal in life. To question. All the greatest thinkers of our race have questioned. An example, Columbus questioning that the earth was flat. It wasn't, but everyone thought he was mad for claiming it might not be. Once upon a time people thought that the sun revolved around the earth, until someone questioned that "truth" and proved otherwise. In fact, as artists, (and I'm talking true artists here, fine artists if you will, those who use their art to explore and discover) we are natural questioners, and thus we have a duty to be skeptical and question everything we see and hear and experience. We might expand human knowledge someday. It's very unlikely, but it's far more likely that we, the questioners, will, than those who go through life believing what they see on the news and accepting the government's word as "gospel", and whose greatest ambitions in life are to have money and be famous. *sigh* such people are hopeless cases, totally conditioned by the system to accept, unthinkingly.

And I never want to be such a person. I have actively chosen not to be.
of course, this has very little to do with religion, except that I'm justifying my "question what you believe in" comment. I mean, I have a few beliefs in life myself, none of which are religious it has to be said, but... it's the same rationale.

Broadly speaking, science is also the act of questioning the pre-established priciples and natural laws, and from knowing the basics of that field, you move on to questioning other things, theories. In a sense all fields which involve thinking beyond ones meager skill on how to improve, lead to a natural tendancy towards creative thought, and the only way to learn, is to question ones self, the world and other people.

And as for only anrachists and aethiests being evil people, murderers, killers and such. Many of the better know serial killers knew the bible better than most. So much for it being 'the good book'. People who pevert Islam and use it as an excuse to murder Americans and their own people are also supposed to be good servants of their god. What kind of a god condones the senseless murder of human beings in their name. None. People just use religion as an excuse to punish the infidels, sinners. They cheapen it with the blood of the innocent, shed in their dieties name. I dont belive in god but I think they would disagree with murder in any form, and especially in their name.

quote:

---

I dont belive in god but I think they would disagree with murder in any form, and especially in their name.

---

Hmm...mabye thats why in the Ten Commandments God gave to man it says, "Don't murder."

quote:

---

Creativity and philosophy go hand in hand, as questioning and developing your chosen artistic field and vision, leads to questioning things outside of ones artistic scope. A natural acension from questioning the small things to questioning ones surroundings, and from there to questioning the world itself.
Broadly speaking, science is also the act of questioning the pre-established priciples and natural laws, and from knowing the basics of that field, you move on to questioning other things, theories. In a sense all fields which involve thinking beyond ones meager skill on how to improve, lead to a natural tendancy towards creative thought, and the only way to learn, is to question ones self, the world and other people.

---

spot on, Neo, well worded and well argued. I enjoyed reading that a lot. But then, it's always nice to hear opinions that tally with your own. ;) XD

quote:

---

That is another thing artists and philosophers are important for - opening the minds of others to fulfil intellectual hunger and overcome prejudice.

---

=) it's not a coincidence that artists tend to be the most open minded, accepting and generally all round groovy people you meet. XD but it's true - they are.... you don't find many "townie" types among artists, because we're far enough along with our explorations of the world to realise that close-mindedness will get us nowhere.

I'm enjoying this discussion. XD man, I feel like a lot of the thoughts and ideas I've had recently are beginning to fit together very neatly. =) and as if I just hadn't seen the connections before. It's rather satisfying. XD

The world is full of people who all want it to spin the way that suits them. Most will go with the flow and take circumstance as it comes, but some will do anything to twist it to their will, faith is not an issue for a man who knows what he preaches is nonsense, neither is divine retribution. Maybe they aren't bad people, they're just willing to get a little dirty to get their way, to them religion is not a guiding light, it's a tool. And like all tools, it exists to be used. And people too, exist to further their ends blinded by faith and promises of eternity in paradise.

The true question is not to question your faith in god, rather it is to question those who claim to represent him on earth. How can you blindly follow a religion whose followers through the ages couldn't even follow it's own commandments ?, and somehow managed to justify the burning of people at the stake, flogging, and unspeakable methods of torture, all in the name of god. Don't mean to sound like im having a go at you, but does that sound sane to you ?. How can you justify a faith in a religion that has broken its set of unbreakable rules hundreds of times over ?.